The Potomac Highlands Watershed School 

Oh Deer!" 2008 Environmental Forum

 

Points of View with Thoughtful Questions - Foresters

 

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Baby Treehuggers                                          Hampshire H.S.

                                                                                                                                 10/28/2008

                                                                                                                                 11:26:00 AM

As foresters, we believe that there should be a bigger limit on deer in hunting season

because the deer are killing all the baby seedlings that are being  planted. To get forests to

 be more populated from other older trees being cut down. Don’t get us wrong there should

 be deer but just not as much as there are. According to Dave Warner, He sees the impact

of a high deer population on the forest vegetation, especially in the under story layers

where they have the highest and most immediate impact. The dense vegetation layer,

presence of tree seedlings, forbs, shrubs, and wildflowers, even the accumulation of fallen

 leaves that forms much of the litter layer on the forest floor, has largely disappeared

over the past 25 years. Our deer population has really had a strong impact on the forest.

We can look and immediately tell a difference in the growth of West Virginia’s forests. The

 deer are important but,we need to take action on the problem that has kept our forests

from reaching their full,mature growth.The actions we have taken are putting up invisible

deer fences and adding tree tubes to some of the saplings. Even though as foresters we do

 not just cut trees to get rid of them,we are actually an important part of the

environment.By removing older trees we allow saplings to grow vigorously and provide a

happy,healthy home to all of West Virginia's critters.

 

 

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  From:   The Elmer Fudd's - hunter - NHHS                                            Ask

                                                                                11/5/2008           12:26:00 PM

Excuse me but how are you going to put up invisible deer fences? How exactly wouldyou get the deer to avoid the fence if it's invisible? Just wondering...  And why not just put tree tubes around all of the saplings?  Sure, you're probably thinking it may be expensive, but if it's that big of a deal to you, you would find a way to pay for the plastic tubes.  Even if you meant an electric shocker fence, how would you put collars on all of the deer?  This does not seem cost effective and besides, the fence would have to be at least 9 feet tall so the deer can't jump over it...

       Response    Baby Treehuggers - forester - HHS

                                                                                       11/18/2008     

             We did say were were going to put tree tubes around the saplings.The

             invisible fence is supposed to be invisible to the deer. Do your research!              There is a such a thing called invisible deer fence. which is suppose

             to be invisible to  the deer not to us the DEER!

 

From:    Anonymous                                                            Ask

                                                                                11/5/2008           12:37:00 PMI agree with your solution to the over population in deer. I have come up with a similar solution with people in my group. What are your thoughts on the giving of limited licenses to hunters though?

  From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                   Ask

                                                          11/19/2008            8:07:00 AM

     how much do these "invisible fences" cost?

  From:   Buck Masters - hunter - BGHS                                        Ask

                                                                       11/19/2008             8:41:00 AM

     i do not like the idea of the fence i do not understand..and how many deer should we have?

  From:   Girl With Big Guns - hunter – BGHS                                                 Ask

                                                                                          11/21/2008            8:46:00 AM

     I agree that something has to be done about the deer destroying the forests. Putting

      tubes around seedlings can definitely be beneficial to an extent. How do you plan to

     put up invisible fencing? Deer can jump. How will hunters be able to maneuver

     around the woods with these impossible fences?

 

 

 

Forest protectors Hampshire H.S.

                                                                                                                           10/30/2008

                                                                                                                             9:16:00 AM

      The deer, while wonderful creatures are destructive when overpopulated. There are

many ways to solve this problem but which is best? Which solution is the safest. In our

group, foresters, we chose to combine two of them. Hunting and putting up deer fences.

      Deer cause the forests to die when overpopulated. The forest has a lack of woody,

herbaceous areas. They destroy the understory, which destroys the canapy. Deer will also

eat the supplings before any of them can grow. This can cause the entire forest to turn

upside down.

      Part one of our plan would be to let people hunt during certain times of the year. Limit

them to about 3 deer and require that no fawns are to be killed. This helps the population

go down but not diminish. It makes the others (the other groups) happy and saves the

forest.

       Part two of our plan is to put up a deer fence until the population is under control. The

 fences would have to be strong and sterdy. Those fences can cost anywhere from $60

and up. This would only be temporary so the cost of repairs wouldn't affect the budget all

that much. To gain some money back someone coul charge the hunters a little bit to hunt in

the forest.

       This could cause a dramatic change, but it would even out after a while. According to

www.nixalite.com this could be on of the less costly and more effective solution. The deer

would die off a little and the forest would begin to grow. The other organisms could come

back home and stop dying off. Our group believes that this could work with a little bit of

"elbow grease."

 

 

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Thoughtful Questions

  From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                                        Ask

                                                                                          11/19/2008             8:11:00 AM

     What other times of year would people hunt during?

  From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                                        Ask

                                                                                          11/19/2008             8:12:00 AM

     What kind of fences would you put up?

  From:   Buck Masters - hunter - BGHS                                                          Ask

                                                                                          11/19/2008            8:49:00 AM

     i agree with you, many good points and it does make everyone happy. But how would

     you get all that money back?

 

 

 

 

 

the environthusiasts  Hampshire H.S.

                                                                                                                            10/31/2008

                                                                                                                           12:25:00 PM

     We, the foresters, are slightly more aware of the problems produced by the excess

deer population.  This is mainly because of the effect the deer have on the vegetation in the

 forest biome.  If the deer population exceeds 15-20 per square mile, the forest can be

drastically altered.  The Deer eliminate all of the new saplings and seedlings on the forest

floor.  This, in turn, destroys the future generations of the forest.       Possible solutions

include fencing, more hunting, repellants, and the releasing of such predators as wolves and

 mountain lions.  These methods have been widely considered by some experts but some of

those solutions would have an undesired effect on our forest habitat. For instance, if we

were to release wolves and mountain lions they would not only eat the deer but they would

also eat other animals of that habitat thus lowering that species population considerably.

There is one solution that we have agreed on and that is more hunting. Hunting is

environmental friendly and reduces the deer population by half each year. In doing that, we

 also need to step up on our gun safety because of the number of hunting accidents each

year.     In conclusion there are many things that we could possibly do to help our situation

 but these are the things that we don’t really desire because of the undesired effect. In

the next few decades we can see deer wiping out whole forests because they have

destroyed the new saplings. If we don’t do anything about this situation the future of our

forests looks very grim.

 

 

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Moderator Comments: On the main forum page I noted that one of the challenges for developing management programs that reduce the deer herd to levels that are good for the forest ecosystem and agriculture is that hunters get upset when it starts to work and they see fewer deer and have the chance to shoot fewer deer - and begin to complain loudly to the agencies to change their policies.  You can see that exact response in some of the eForum  POVs.   One link on the main eForum page was to an Audubon article that described these challenges.  I note that the link is now broken because Audubon changed their url (drat), here is the correct one.   In order for your suggestions to work, you will have to build a consensus in the real world where people jealously guard their turf.   How do you suggest we do that?   At the moment, most decisions made about deer management are made by wildlife agencies.  Who else should have a seat at the table?  Should insurance companies?  Foresters?  Ecologists? Environmentalists? Farmers?

 

  From:   Foresters of Mt. Vista - forester - MVGS                                                        Statement

                                                                                          11/22/2008            8:31:00 PM

I have a couple of comments, the first being that your ideal solution of having an extended hunting season, but also improving gun safety controls and regulation is something that we didn't think of, it could work.  The only thing that could be held against the argument would be that with the extended hunting season, hunters would either bag slightly less healthy deer or could predominantly go after the bucks.  This shooting of the males would not help the population much, if any, for there would still be a large number of does, and the few bucks left would be having a, pardon the expression, a free-for-all.  The bucks also would not be fighting over females and territory as often, and such fights may cause the death of a deer.

My other comment is that  with the reintroduction of predators, yes they will eat other species as well, but since the deer is the primary food source for the gray wolf, the deer population would see a dramatic decresase.  This decrease in turn would lead to a rise in the populations of the plants the deer used to eat, and so other species would have a better chance to survive and reproduce, giving their population a boost.  The reintroduced predators will then hunt these species, like you said, but the effect would not be detrimental to any part.  Except the deer.

 

 

 

Feeling Woody  Petersburg H.S

                                                                                                                              11/5/2008

                                                                                                                            8:08:00 AM

    We are foresters, a person who manages the forest which is the practice of forestry (3). We have a broad range of activities that include timber harvesting, ecological restoration, and management of protected areas (3). These fields manage terrestrial natural resource for the benefit of human race (3). We manage forests to provide a variety of benefits for humans including direct extraction of raw material, recreation, conservation, hunting and, aesthetics, as well as the less tangible benefits such as clean air and improved water, and others (3).

    We are  responsible for patrolling the woodlands, his duties include negotiating deals for the sale of lumber and timber and to stop poachers from illegally killing animals in the forest. 

It becomes obvious the problem of the preservation of nature can be approached in different ways.

    As a forester it is our job to make sure that no serious harm comes to the animals out of a regular season.  There is something about the deer that epitomizes the wild (1).  Even though there can be too much of an animal. The deer are not over populated.  However, people have confused healthy herds, people feeding the deer next to the road, and people bating them in to watch them in the backyard. 

    This is negligence on their part, because the deer are coming to the road looking for food, and people bating them in their yard have no consideration for their neighbors.

(1) http://www.chicagowildernessmag.org/issues/winter2000/deer.html

(2) http://www.idausa.org/facts/deercontrol.html

(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forester

 

 

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  From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                                        Statement

                                                                                          11/19/2008            8:22:00 AM

     Try to get people to stop feeding deer along side the road.  That means the deer are

      near or in the road and that could cause a car accident.

 

 

 

The Green Gurus Petersburg H.S

                                                                                                                              11/5/2008

                                                                                                                             8:15:00 AM

 The over population of deer in the Potomac highlands is a big issue. Vegetation in this area suffers from the over population. Deer feed on small seedlings laying on the forest bottom and from small gardens and many others sources.
 There was an experiment done on Nathaniel Mountain in a public hunting area, where a fence was put up to keep the deer out of a specific area. After a few weeks, signs of better vegetation growth improved significantly. This is proof that the over population of deer have an immense effect on the forest. “White-tailed deer herds were once subject to predation from large predators such as the Eastern Timber Wolf and the Eastern Cougar; however, these predators no longer control deer herds in the east. In fact, the deer herd will increase 30 to 40 percent per year when protected and under good habitat conditions (http://www.wvdnr.gov/Hunting/FundDeerMan.shtm).”
The solution to the over population of these deer is an extended deer season. The legalization of spot lighting for the duration of 6 months should go into effect. Drastic changes are expected to be seen in the deer population. Studies will be done directly after the 6 months time period to determine how the population has been effected and how long to extend the next deer season.
At the conclusion of the experimental 6 months of legalizing spot lighting, observations will be done on the vegetation growth through out the state. The conservation department will take note of what types of plants and make notes of any new populations of plants. Much attention will be paid towards the struggling seedlings that lie on the forest bottom.
The expected results of the entire experiment should produce a smaller deer population and the growth of many plants. This should have a direct effect on the environment. The average amount of deer being hit by vehicles, which costs our citizens hundreds and thousands of dollars every year, should decrease. Then the deer should not pester the property owners who are dependent upon the gardens and self-grown foods.
 

 

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  From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                                        Statement

                                                                                          11/19/2008             8:19:00 AM

     Spot lighting is a way of hunting. It would help control the deer population since

     there are a lot of deer out at night.

 

Moderator Comments: On the main forum page I noted that one of the challenges for developing management programs that reduce the deer herd to levels that are good for the forest ecosystem and agriculture is that hunters get upset when it starts to work and they see fewer deer and have the chance to shoot fewer deer - and begin to complain loudly to the agencies to change their policies.  You can see that exact response in some of the eForum  POVs.   One link on the main eForum page was to an Audubon article that described these challenges.  I note that the link is now broken because Audubon changed their url (drat), here is the correct one.   In order for your suggestions to work, you will have to build a consensus in the real world where people jealously guard their turf.   How do you suggest we do that?   At the moment, most decisions made about deer management are made by wildlife agencies.  Who else should have a seat at the table?  Should insurance companies?  Foresters?  Ecologists? Environmentalists? Farmers?

  From:   Girl With Big Guns - hunter – BGHS                                                 Ask

                                                                                          11/25/2008             8:01:00 AM

     I can see how you may think that spot lighting deer will be beneficial. However, many

      people already, unfortunately, do this illegally. I feel that the game and wildlife

     department should be the only ones in charge of spot lighting to maintain the deer.

     Why did you choose a 6 month time frame for spot lighting?

 

 

 

Foresters of Mt. Vista Mountain Vista Governors School

                                                                                                                            11/12/2008

                                                                                                                           12:40:00 PM

     The foresters as a stakeholder group are quite important, as they care for the forest

environment in which deer live.  This stakeholder group is affected by environmental

problems, such as the overpopulation of the deer species, through the eating and

destruction of the forest ecosystem by the deer.  This in turn affects the soil, as well as

the water systems in the forest, which then goes on to affect the other ecosystems that

water system passes through.  The foresters are directly affected by the overgrazing of

the deer in that it causes destruction to the native plant species that the foresters are

trying to preserve, and so makes their job that much more difficult.

     There are many solutions to the overpopulation problem, including reintroduction of

natural predators and convincing more people to hunt deer, which can be subdivided into

two categories:  hunters and specialist programs.  These specialist programs include such

groups as Dr. Anthony DeNicola’s hunting group and local sharp shooting programs.  Dr.

DeNicola founded a group to hunt deer, and bag every bit of it, and turned it into a venture

 for charity, where he donates all the venison to foundations for charity.  Sharp shooting

groups in Pennsylvania train by hunting the deer in the local areas and thereby lowering the

population somewhat.  Another solution has been proposed by state Senator Hubert Houser

 (R) of Iowa.  He believes that Iowa should fix its deer overpopulation problem by feeding

ground venison to inmates at prisons around the state.  In order to accomplish this, more

hunters would be encouraged to donate some of their kills to the prisons, and from this ten

 thousand more deer tags would be issued in Iowa.  One other solution is to set up deer

exclusion areas, as can be seen at Birmingham University, where the deer eat 99% of the

wildflowers and halt forest regeneration.

     All of these solutions affect the foresters.  The hunting/specialist groups and Sen.

Houser’s solution all reduce the number of deer populating an area, which is an immediate

result.  Over time, however, these solutions probably won’t last because of our tendency to

be lazy and lack of desire to go out and have to do something.  The deer exclusion areas

could work over long term, but it would only leave pockets of forest and vegetation intact

instead of entire ecosystems.  The most favorable solution to the foresters is the

reintroduction of natural predators into the ecosystem.  These predators include gray

wolves and cougars (pumas).  This might not show an immediate result, but this

reintroduction would see improvements in all aspects of the ecosystem, and this is

evidenced in Yellowstone National Park, where the reintroduction of the gray wolf has seen

 a decline in elk population, which had been overgrazing the cottonwood trees and causing a

major decline in sapling growth.  The decrease of the elk population allowed for the

saplings to mature, and with that maturity, the saplings prevented runoff, impacting the

water system greatly for the better.  Some may say that this reintroduction of natural

predators, especially wolves, would result in more attacks by these animals on the human

population.  This is highly unlikely, as there have only been 27 attacks on humans in the

1900’s, and up to 2006, only 3 attacks have been fatal, due to injuries inflicted by rabid

wolves.  Cougars are solitary creatures by nature, and would rarely approach areas of

extensive human development, and thereby attacks would be rare occurrences.  Thus, the

reintroduction of the natural predators is the most favorable way by the foresters to

regulate the rising deer population and growth.

 

 

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Moderator's comment:  Congratulations on a very well reasoned POV!  I posted a Moderator's Coyote Challenge on the eForum's home page.  Any thoughts on that?  

 

 From:   Deer Assassins - hunter - BGHS                                                        Statement

                                                                                          11/19/2008             8:16:00 AM

     I agree with you that the farmers struggle, because the deer always eat the crops.

 

Moderator Comments: On the main forum page I noted that one of the challenges for developing management programs that reduce the deer herd to levels that are good for the forest ecosystem and agriculture is that hunters get upset when it starts to work and they see fewer deer and have the chance to shoot fewer deer - and begin to complain loudly to the agencies to change their policies.  You can see that exact response in some of the eForum  POVs.   One link on the main eForum page was to an Audubon article that described these challenges.  I note that the link is now broken because Audubon changed their url (drat), here is the correct one.   In order for your suggestions to work, you will have to build a consensus in the real world where people jealously guard their turf.   How do you suggest we do that?   At the moment, most decisions made about deer management are made by wildlife agencies.  Who else should have a seat at the table?  Should insurance companies?  Foresters?  Ecologists? Environmentalists? Farmers?

 

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Baby Treehuggers   Forest protectors    the environthusiasts    Feeling Woody  

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